Lots of Blue Hampden

One of my recent purchases. I try and stay away from pocket watches but I keep getting sucked back into them. I tend to have a weakness for Hampdens as well. Some rather uncommon movements out there and people seem to never notice them.

This is a 16s 17j grade 240 made for W. J. Johnson in 1908. 1 run of 1000 in that year only is the total production. So far this is the only watch where steel parts being blued to this extent I have seen. Screws, escapement wheel, pallet fork, regulator, balance wheel arms, hairspring stud, and pinions have all been blued. If you look close at the tops of the train pinions, they are blue as well.

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A Different Auction - The Longines Mainliner and 14K Omega Seamaster 550

We typically hit estate sales and the such on weekends looking for things to put in the antique malls, and watches as usual. We had just finished going through a sale and there was a estate auction no less then 3 blocks away. We had already resigned ourselves to not bothering but in the auction listing there was a 3.15 cttw antique diamond ring with appraisal. With the only page I could see on line of the appraisal it showed 5 stones and 4 were .05 ct. The math in my head says that is a .20 cttw so the main stone is like a 2.95 ct. That is huge and well worth a chance. Called up my diamond buyer and was told that depending on the 3 c's I could get $45k or so for it. 

We take our haul back home and then hot foot it back to the auction. I finally get a chance to see the ring and the appraisal and something does not sit right with me. Maybe I am bad with math but when the report says that the main stone is a 2.3 ct and the 4 side stones are .05 each....to me that is 2.5 cttw. What the :( So the paperwork may be wrong on that but they said they had a jeweler look over everything and they said all the cut color and clarity are right. Well with a K color and an I1 clarity I could only get $4.5k for it. I figured I would register anyway just in case it went for cheap...then the guy in front of me in line getting a number turned out to be a family member and the executor of the estate.

I so hate auctions where all the family member go bidding stuff up to increase what they get directly out of the sales of the items. I call this blatant shill bidding and most honest auction houses I know don't allow this kind of situation. So I have the number but am at the "screw this crooked setup I am out of here" feeling and get ready to leave and then I spot an Omega pox on a table about 40 feet away...I make a b line to that table. In a carboard flat there is a JJ (modern quartz) watch in box, a Elgin pocket watch, a ladies Bulova they called 14K (was GF), a mens Longines, the Omega box with an Omega Seamaster in it, and a few other random watches (junk).

So while I was waiting for them to finally get to the box of watches they were doing choice out of other boxes on the tables of jewelry in flats as well. I was bored but made the best of it by buying silver for under scrap price. Low and behold in one of those flats was a brass metal watch box...I open it up and find some beat up worn down Clinton in an amazing Longines box. There was little interest in the watch box so I snagged it for $15 with a hope it went to the Longines I saw in the watch box.

The time finally came and I could see some others eyeing up the watches. They did choice again. The issue with choice is you never know if the person you are bidding against is after the same item. Being the Omega and Longines were in the running I refused to not be the one who did not win. My wife knows that I will try and never over pay but when I finally nailed the first bid to $210 she was a bit concerned. Snapped up the Omega and it started again....she kept saying "You do know most of these people bidding are most likely after the pocket watch." It did nag me in the back of my head that this could be true and they are after a 15 jewel Elgin because people over pay for stuff like that at auctions here. That said I still went ahead again...landed at $175 and snapped up the Longines. AT this point I was done bidding. The pocket watch went for $85 and by this time the table looked like a ghost town because the Omega was gone. 

As for that big diamond...that came up while my wife was bidding on choice for jewelry out of a box. She managed to get more silver and a 18K bar pin for $5 :) The main auctioneer's hammer fell on $5,800 for the big diamond and apparently it had a $5000 reserve to begin with. So the item we went back for was not worth it to us and in the end I got these two beauties.

The Longines box did indeed belong to the watch and confirmed it later by the serial on the price tag matching the movement serial. It is a 1947 Mainliner with a replacement leather strap in good working order. I went and got a new black leather strap for it as the old one was kind of grubby and not original anyways.

The Omega is a 1970's automatic Seamaster Deville with warranty book and paper slip for service center locations. I need to take it to the watchmaker for a new Omega crystal as the original one is cracked around the edge and the bezel is popping up because of it. We have yet to find out what the movement is. Based on the back engraving, the slight wave to the case and the flex I could feel on the back as I was trying to get the bezel to stay snapped down, we suspect the watch is 14K. The auction house never got into the watch because they don't know how a snap stem works and it is a open through the crystal. May explain why the bezel was not sitting right and the crystal is cracked, someone playing watchmaker without the right tools. Still not a difficult fix. :) 

And without further ado.....PICS!!!!

An unexpected Rolex/Rolco - The kind of things that pop up

I am putting some things up on here that I have posted on a forum so don't let the lack of continuity throw you. :)

I called the watchmaker yesterday to find out the progress of a repair as well and looking to pick up a couple of watches. While I am on the phone he says "something came in this morning I think you may like". He proceeds to tell me that someone brought in a Rolco that eh thinks the dial is a refinish but still a nice looking watch. 

He said the owner brought it in for a service but once he was told the movement is not a "Rolex" movement he did not feel it was worth the cleaning, oil, and adjustment cost. My watchmaker does not charge more them $75 for a basic service so I could not understand the objection. Apparently the fact that it had a Rolco movement and not a Rolex marked one upset them so much they were happy to be rid of it. I worked out a price to offer and it was accepted. 

By the time I went to pick up the watch it was done being serviced and ticking away nicely. Now I know my watchmaker feels that the dial is a refinish but I can't see that. The age, style, and general condition lead me to believe otherwise. It is a silver guilloche with lumed numbers. The lume is obviously radium and has chipped and flaked with age as I have seen before. The think that made him think redial was the actual "Rolex" name being on the dial. I asked about the dial feet and he said they are right for the movement and not moved or replaced. So the dial is for this movement.

I looked into the markings on the case and they are Glasgow import marks for silver and there is the correct RWC Ltd markings. Based on the type of dial and where it was imported I would almost think Northern Goldsmiths may have been the retailer of the watch. This is only a guess because my experience with Rolex is limited. I am not sure how to date the watch to a year because the case has a date code but I have seen this same silver Glasgow date code an may other silver Rolex watches (not just Rolco). It is a lower case B which would be 1924. Being that, in many of the pictures I have found they have the same date code I would almost think they did a mass import of silver cases at one point and then put movements in as they went.

The movement is a Rolco marked 15j Beguelin "Damas" #4

The only thing that bugs me is that one spot someone relumed on the hand.  Looks silly at night with just that one little spot glowing.















33mm sits ok on my wrist. :)

The Recent Auction - The Unexpected Appleton Watch Co Experience

It was a busy Saturday this weekend but was worth it. We had a flea market we were set up at which supplied me no source of watches but I did snag a nice WWII rifle. The flea market though was not my main event for the day....a local auction house had the estate of a watch/clock collector. So at about 9:05 my father in law and I took off from the market to go see if there was anything worth while.

Plenty of cars and people but there was more than enough to go around. There were 4 tables set up with cases full of watches. Estimate was over 100 pocket watches. There was about 50+ clocks but that in my father in laws domain. Tons of machinist tools and even a big CNC machine. Apparently he paid over $45,000 for that machine. Everything including the house and workshop were up for auction.

I eyed up a few watches I felt were worth trying for. Just an Idea of what was there I found 6 Hamilton 992's, 3 BW Raymond, 3 Waltham Vanguards, a Veritas, Illinois Sangamo 21 ruby jewel marked HC, a worm gear, 3 cylinder, 2 Fusee, 3 early Bulova, 2 Ball (one 17j and one 19j) and countless common other american pocket watches. The one that caught my attention was one of the Bulova that was extremely thin. It was not a Phantom in a plat case though.

The focus of my attention though was the Appleton Watch Co pocket watch. I had heard of them and I had seen 1 at my watchmaker but never seen one "in the wild". Person after person inspected it and it traveled around from table to table. At one point I lost track of it and there was a flurry of auction staff asking around for it. It finally reappeared in a different box on a different table. The importance of its location is that this was a auction of choice out of the tray they pull. If you don't know what tray the watch you want is in you may miss it or bid too high for a watch that is not even there.

I looked it over finally and found that the balance was good, the watch complete, original case, but it needed a service. I put it back where I found it and then went to killing time until they started. Luckily it was in tray 2 they brought out. Bidding started at $25 and you could tell bidders started dropping off at around $200. I had called my watchmaker before the auction started so I had an idea of where I wanted to stop. The bidding ended up between me and only one other person. But I was surprised that the hammer fell at less then half of what I was willing to go to.

I went up and claimed the watch from the box. I can only explain why bidding dropped off so fast was because there were many that may not have know the watch was in that tray. The person I was bidding against must have been the one who put it there. And why he stopped was explained to me by my father in law. There was another "watchmaker" there that had told him that he had worked on that watch before and all the winding and setting were worn so badly the watch was almost a parts watch.

This did not fit with what I could feel and see with this particular watch. If he had serviced it why were the balance pivots gummed with old oil? Why was the setting just right and the winding felt perfect? The reason this "watchmaker" is an important part of the event is that he was there with the person I was bidding against for the watch. Most likely he told him the same story and that limited what he was willing to go to.

The reason I use the term "watchmaker" like I do is because this person has been known to dunk movements in gasoline as his "cleaning" method. He has ruined many watches that my father in law had to then fix for people. He has also been known to take watches to my father in law to fix and then told people that he had fixed it instead. In other words a "watchmaker" instead of a watchmaker.

So besides the Appleton I picked up a nice Longines HC with the Gold Medal Paris markings, a grade 542 Elgin Deluxe, Longines 1878 Gold Medal Paris HC, a box with some wristwatches..etc

But still the Appleton was the prize of the day and I was tempted to stay but I needed to head back and finish the flea market and pack up. Now if anyone has any information on the Appleton Watch Co and its watches I am all ears. This is other than the usual paragraph that I seem to find everywhere. 

What I know so far.....

Appleton Watch Co was created when OE Bell bought the machinery from the dead Cheshire Watch co and moved it to Appleton WI in 1901. First watches shipped in Feb 1902 and the production ended mid 1903. The watch is an 18s 7j in an original Appleton watch case and the movement is made with the stem and bow attached. The serial number 93248 is meaningless as the serials did not match production. Total production of the company is estimated between 2k and 3k. 

Being that most of the movements appear to be 7j and not very high quality I believe most would have fallen victim to wear and use beyond economical repair over the years. The watch would have been just above dollar watch quality and would not have been very expensive to purchase to begin with. A lack of parts and the cost of repair and service beyond the initial cost of the watch more then likely made the owners junk them. Actual surviving population is unknown.

Ashland had one for sale in Dec 2005 S# 93106 (Arabic Numeral)
NAWCC Member Posted Jan 2009 S#91878 (Roman Numeral)
Liveauctioneers Sold Nov 2009 S#93752 (Mov Only 11-15j Damaged)
Art Institute Chicago Paul M Chamberlain Collection S#93237
Jones-Horan Nov 2009 S#93106 (Sold again 4 years after Ashland - Condition report indicates non original bow and hands and needing repair)
Jones-Horan Date Unknown Lot 147 S#93015 (Replacement case)
IHC185 Member Nov 2003 S#90487 (Top plate only)
Sotheby's Oct 2004 (Time Museum Auction - Mentioned as part of a lot, no serials, desc or pics)

So of 8 I found online we have....

2 duplicate (needing service)
1 part 
1 Movement 
1 With a replacement case
2 Potential good running and original
1 Known running and original

And without further chatter...the Appleton....

Why I Am Here.....

I have been a watch collector for 26 and have been told over and over that I need to get out here.  I am not rich and you will not see me posting pic after pic of this Patek or that Vacheron.  I buy what I can afford and sell what I can to help support my hobby and add money to our account.

I started when I was 10 with a fascination with mechanical pocket watches.  I had already been collecting US coins for 3 years and had cataloged my grand father's collection when I was 9.  Collecting was nothing new to me but the collecting of watches was a whole new world.  It is a world of almost infinite variety and one of hundreds of years of history.

There are some concepts that collectors have to learn very early on.....

Don't buy what can't be fixed.
Don't buy without any research (a little is ok but risky).
Don't buy if it is not working.
Don't buy what you can't afford.

The first one is simple to understand.  If it is missing a bridge or major parts you are buying something you cant have as original or the parts may not be available based on how common it is.  I once, as a kid, bought a Hampden movement that I would say was 40% complete.  I was young and thought that it could be fixed.  I was told it could be but it would never be original and would cost 4 times what the end watch would be worth.  A good lesson and cheap at $5.

The second is one even experienced collectors miss and can get burned for.  If you are able to spend money on a watch just because you like it, this is not a big deal.  If you are buying with a mind that you may want to sell some day or sooner, you need research.  I buy only what I know without research because a road traveled over and over does not need a map.  Until you know the movements, quality, functioning, feel, etc... don't run the risk.

The third is a little less obvious then it sounds.  Many collectors can tell you stories when they bought a watch thinking it only needed a basic service and found out it needed major repairs.  The risk here can lead to number one on the list.  My current case of this is a 14K Omega Seamaster 550 in the original boxes and papers.  I bought it, low at $215, and it was running and needed a crystal.  Well the crystal was $50 and then I find out that the beat is off based on position.  Cleaning and a beat adjustment did not help so now I am looking at a complete balance replacement for a further $150.  I paid low so it is still ok.  But it does show how what you may think is just something simple can bloom to a major repair.

The forth should seem common sense but is not always.  People have the habit of over extending with credit or trying to buy things that are out of the scope of their finances just to get it.  My best advice is patience.  Don't just throw money at something just because you think you need a Patek in the collection.  I still have never owned one, but I am still waiting for the right opportunity to come along.  You may have to wait over 20 years but at some point you will find that one deal.

So why call it vintage watch hunting?  Because that is what some of us do.  We are not looking to just walk in somewhere and order up a watch like a hamburger.  We are looking for the rare, odd, unusual, or great deal.  If we wanted to go and buy a Hamilton 992 we would.  If we want to find a Hamilton 992 for half of the value in an original box....you have to hunt.  There is a certain thrill to the game.  You learn more than you would if you just went in and always bought exactly what you were looking for.

My best deals have always been the unexpected ones...... as you will see.  Join me in the hunt and learn what is out there in the unexpected and unusual places.  If there can be a watch for sale there...go there.