A LUC - Chopard Pocket Watch from Bulgaria

I have taken a risk I always advise others to avoid. I bought from a Bulgarian seller. I thought about it but not too long and I almost did not buy. I looked at their other items and almost none were franken or movements thrown in modern cases. Dials were not modified. Selling other things other than watches too and not all Coach or Gucci. 

I looked at the pictures at least 10 times and studied them. Checked his feedback. Looked at his past sold items. All look good so far. I am not saying that buying from someone in Bulgaria is a bad thing, just that so many sellers from that area are not very reputable when it comes to watch authenticity. There are fakers and franken makers everywhere, just more in some places more than others. So I took the risk and in the end I may have junk or something I will be happy with in the collection.

He kept saying IWC Cal 52 movement in the listing. The title, brand listed, and in the description he says that it is LUC but then reverts to the technical details of a IWC 52. If there was not as many pictures I would have just skipped it and went on my merry way. But I was hooked by the pics, and they are below. It Looks all correct. Case is properly marked and so is the movement. The movement is the correct design. The dial is unmarked but then if the dial had an applied name over the enamel in a paint it could have come off with cleaning.

The movement is actually a Chopard 19"' H6.4 15 jewel.  The case is a Galonne le Qualite marked German .800 silver.  It will need a clean but should look nice when done.  The movement is being listed as running and serviced.  

Final Update - Mystery Elgin 190 Type

This will be my last update on the blog about this Elgin.  Through the knowledge and experience of members of the WatchUSeek forum.  I wish to express my thanks to the members there.  Ben Hutcherson in particular has been very helpful.

In his experience he has seen and knows of watches built by employees of watch factories.  They were sold grey materials at cost and allowed to use equipment to build and finish them.  This is currently the best theory for this watch.  The only other working theory is as a prototype.

I did have the chance to strip down the watch for a basic clean and oil.  When I did I took the pictures below.  They show the high level of quality of this watch's build.  As well as that it shows that the parts have no partial or whole serial numbers stamped in them.  In a regular watch all the main plates are stamped.  

So at the moment the watch will have to be classified as an employee made grade 190.  The serial may have meaning but that meaning may be lost to time.

Mystery Elgin Update

After a gentleman on the forum (GeneJockey) he mentioned the grade 190.  This is a 23 jewel 12 size high grade Elgin hunting case movement.  I did find one instance of a 190 marked Lord Elgin with the same kind of damaskeening.  The onlt issue is that the serial number does not fall into the production range of the 190.

The watch serial would not work with any introduction of any digit within the serial on the watch.  I did further look at the watch by removing the dial.  Unlike most Elgin watches, there is no serial on the base plate.

So we still have a mystery as even though it is a grade 190 there is still the mystery of the serial number and the fact that a 23 jewel watch is marked 21.  As you can see from the picture above, there are 3 cap jewels visible.  17 jewels as a full jewel + 4 Cap Jewels + 2 Barrel Jewels = 23.  This does fall in line with the grade 190.  This appears to be a pre-production watch.  Is it possible they were testing finish styles?

I highly suggest anyone who has an interest in Elgin and vintage pocket watches in general visit Gene's blog.  You can find it here GeneJockey's Elgin Watch Blog

Part 2 - Mystery Elgin 12 Size 21 jewel Grade 236?

So the Elgin arrived in the mail at the same time as another.  I will post about that other one later as I am far more consumed by the Elgin at the moment.  So I inspected the watch and changed the crystal for one I had in my crystal set.  The watch is happily running away and after a bit I discovered something I will mention in a moment.  First there is the issue of that serial number.  I looked and for sure there was no mistake.  The serial 1620512 is what is on the watch and it is not a poor strike or any missing number.

 

The over all condition is nice.  The only thing I do not particularly like are the fine scratches of a screwdriver skating on the plate near the "Safety Barrel" words.  The movement is 21 jewels with a jeweled mainspring barrel.

The quality of the movement is excellent.  And this is where I noticed the one thing I did not expect, the mustache lever.  The watch actually has a mustache lever escapement.  This was something I usually expect to see in higher grade Swiss watches like Patek, LeCoultre, and Audemars.

This site is one of the best ones for information on movements.  The gentleman who runs it frequents the forum that I belong to. Ranfft is a great place to research.  Patek with Mustache Lever

The dial to the watch is far more silver than the auction pictures showed or the NOS ones I mentioned in the earlier post.  The dial is original to the watch and has the correct age as one would expect.

 The case is original and has a patent date of Oct 9, 17 which does fall in with this style of watch.

I still find it interesting that they made these watches to seemingly run at or better than railroad grade larger movements but did not put a second hand on it.  I will be reaching out to the forum in hopes one of the members may have an answer about the strange serial number.

The L&R Varimatic Watch Cleaner

As part of a large group of watch parts I picked up a few weeks ago I got a lathe and this awesome J&R cleaner.  I have been cleaning by hand up to now, and most likely still will to a certain extent.  That all said I am sure that cleaning via a machine like this is far less time consuming and does a far better job.

The gentleman I bought it from with the lot said he had changed the bushings and put in a new set of brushes to the motor.  It even came with an extra set of new brushes.  Apparently where he had it stored ended up having something fall on the back jar and lid cracking the edge of the Bakelite top and completely destroying the jar.  I figured I could get a new jar from eBay and I was right.  Set me back $50 though for it.

It also came with an L&R ultrasonic base.  If you have ever had to move these things you know they are like 60 pounds of machine at least.  I plugged it all in and when I started it I knew there was an issue right away.  The cycle should be that it lifts the motor with the lids, the jars move around and the motor drops back down into the jar.  Wish it had gone that way.  The machine immediately started to turn the jars which is bad as the lids have a lip and that catches the jar and jams the machine.

I was so bummed about this.  I had no idea what to expect but I already knew I as not dealing with electronics.  I looked up an instruction manual and printed it out.  Found a service manual as well on line.  I have no idea why people are paying $20 for a copy of the manual that I printed for the cost of a few sheets of paper an a little black ink.  All in cost would be less than a buck but people like to make super profit on such simple things.

I went ahead and looked at the service manual and it gives instructions if the machine goes out of sync.  It said to take the arm off and to remove the pin that holds it in place in the middle.  Ok but I could not understand why it said not to put it back,  I took the back cover off and I found out why it weighs so much.  There is a massive electric motor in it and the base frame is very thick cast metal.  I removed the arm after taking the nut off and punched out the middle pin.

The process is to manually turn that arm back and forth with the base disk on the shaft.  The idea is that it changes the timing of when the motor kicks in to spin and when the motor raises up then the jars move.  So a lot of fiddling and i got it close but at that point the other half wan none to happy with the noise and time with the machine and not her.  So I put it aside for the time.  I did get back to it after a week and a half.

I would suggest that if you plan on doing this process, keep the jars off until you have it right.  I did have the jars off but I can imagine someone forgetting and jamming it again.  I got it to the right spot and it has been working great.  Still need to spend the $100 on cleaner and rinse and put it to real work but that will be another day.  The machine itself is a nice little marvel of how things can be automated without the use of computers and electronics.

There are these screws next to each holder.  The little bar behind it has marks that help indicate the time of the cycle.  As the bottom part moves around to the next jar/stage, that screw that is through the bottom trips a lever.  The further down the screw the further down the lever and the longer the time on that timer.  When the timer is up that trips a switch to turn the motor on to move to the next cycle.  As a switch is pressed or released that causes the motor to go up then the arm causes the base to move the jars then that trips the switch for the timer and a switch it pressed to cause the motor to go back down.

The movement of the motor up and down is actually hydraulic for the lift and lowering.  There is a filler tube with a cap and breather on the side of the machine.  The heater did smell a bit when I was first turning it on and there was a bit of smoke that concerned me to start but it was all good.  I figured out how to connect the ultrasonic unit to the cleaner and it seems to work but I will have no idea yet until I try it.

      

Mystery Elgin 12 Size 21 jewel Grade 236

This watch was a complete last moment buy.  I was doing my usual eBay checking for watches.  This has now been my 2nd favorite hunting ground these days but takes far more work and time than any other.  In this case there was only 4 minutes left in the auction and I had blown most of my reserve PayPal money on 2 other watches already.

The pics looked good and the watch is running.  I had only a few minutes and did as much research in that time as I could.  Well that research turned out to be useless.  I always hit the Elgin Serial Number Database, link at the end, to see what I can find for production numbers.  I tried the number he had in the listing and it came out way wrong for what the watch is.

The serial as reported in the listing is 1620512.  This relates to a 1883 Grade 29  10 size 11 to 15 jewel hunting case watch.  The finish is nickle, size could be 10 but it could be 12, 21 jewels, and the style is way closer to a post 1900 than a 1883 movement.  I double checked the image.  Even though it is fuzzy you can still make out the number and they match.  I quickly try adding a number to the start then one to the end...still no luck.  It was a good quality looking watch and the dial had age to it but for the price I took the risk.

So in the day that has passed I have hunted the best I could and I could find no serial combination that would result in this watch.  I hit the grade list that the site has and the only corresponding 12 size 21 jewel hunting case adjusted movement I could find was the 236.  Total production was done in 1899 only and they made 2000 in all.  The watch is rather rare and in the configuration it is in, worth the risk.

These are pics from the listing, I will update with my own once it is in my hands.

The one thing that did not strike me until I had bought it was the lack of a seconds hand.  This is a hunting case movement with a dial that converts it to open face.  I did find the dial as something that can be currently bought in a 16 size that is NOS from the Elgin factory.  Dial 175 at Daves Watch Parts

The case is a 25 year gold filled case.  I don't have any pictures of the inside of the case back so I have no idea who the maker was.  No brassing at least.

And here is what all the drama is about.  There are a few things about this movement that I still have yet to solve.  You can see the serial number and it is 1620512.  Another is that the other 21 jewel 236 I found on a page does not have the jewel in the barrel but rather a bushing.  That watch is here IHC 185

When you look at the pictures of the movement I did notice the one plate screw missing.  This is replaceable easily as most of the 12 size movements used the same screws and plate configuration.  I intend to strip the watch down and check the numbers stamped on the base plate as well as the other parts.  This will tell me if it was pieced together or is all correctly stamped as one watch.  

I also noticed that the case has no screw marks on the rim.  This is usually a good indication that the case was from a different watch.  being that the dial is one you can find as factory NOS indicates that it could have been installed at factory.  The kicker will be if the case is a Elgin marked case.  That would indicate that the watch was not a jobber but actually sent out like this.  Makes you wonder if all of the 236 were like this.

This is the link to the Elgin site I use.....it is Awesome!  Elgin Database