LaPhare Quarter Repeater - New Arrival Part 2

So after the testing it was time to get to work.  I started by inspecting the governor and found that it needed to be oiled.  The end that has the round pivot allows the arm to swing out and break the speed of the repeater mechanism.  With it being dry the arm could not swing out which cause issues.

This issue also had an interesting symptom in that if the watch was face down the repeater struck but slowed way down at the end.  This was also the repeater mechanism needing oiling.  If on its back the repeater struck at three times the speed it should.  There should be a steady chime not all within 5 seconds for 12:00.  After oiling the pivots of the repeater and the arm pivot of the governor it struck at a good steady rate.  

The movement needed to come out of the case for further cleaning.  Removing a repeater movement is kind of a jigsaw puzzle.  In this case the order is to start with removing the gong screws by the hammers.  Then rotate the gong until the block is in line with a hammer.  The advantage is that the hammer moves and can give you room to lift that bock out with the gongs.

Next step is to remove the stem and crown.  In this case there is a screw that was hidden under the gong.  This is a high polish head screw and does not need to come all the way out.  Just back it up enough to pull the stem out.

After that was out then the repeater button needs to be removed.  Luckily this is only held on by a single long screw.  Once you have the screw off the button will come out.  Then there is a case half screw that was right under the gong by the governor.

Now the movement comes freely out from the front.  Remove the hands and then go about taking the dial off.  In this case the dial is a snap on one.  There are no feet.  There is a pin on the rim to guide you when you are putting it back on.  The dials are a rather snug fit.

Once I had the dial off I went about cleaning and oiling the parts and pivots.  I wish I had taken a picture of it at this point but I was having way too much fun.  The watch portion will be pegged and cleaned when I replace the mainspring as I don't want to have to do it twice.

The assembly is the reverse of the take down.  But I learned a valuable lesson.  You can't just screw the gong block down and think it will sound fine.  It repeated with this dull thunk noise when the hammer struck.  I figured out that if you back out the screws a bit and then activate the repeater the hammer will make the gong settle in the right place through the striking force.  Tighten the screws as it chimes.  

While the watch movement was out I went to work on the case.  The inside of the crystal appeared to have a speckling of something.  At first I though the crystal had been hit multiple times from the inside causing some small chips.  The substance came off nicely though with glass cleaner.  

I cleaned the inside of the case with a cape cod cloth and that helped get the shine back to the inside covers.  The green gunk, as I like to call it, was mostly removed using a sharpened piece of peg wood.  I will be using some Hoppes #9 when I get home to see if I can clean it off the rest of the way.  I am leaving the case unpolished because it gives it character.  

   

LaPhare Quarter Repeater - New Arrival Part 1

It has been 3 weeks from when I won the auction for this watch.  It was yet another risk based on the information given about it.  The pictures looked both promising and scary at the same time.  The green colored material is corrosion and that does not come from sitting in a jewelry box.  I almost suspect some chemical seeped into the space between the cracks.  Possibly a polishing material.

Either way this is what was presented to me on eBay.

As you can see by the outside there is a good deep tarnish going and you can slightly

see the green.  This one shows it more.

The movement looked complete and gilt finishes are usually not the nicest to photograph without showing every spot of tarnish or dirt.  The hammers have no rust though and the overall condition is good and possibly should clean up well.

  As you can see from the pictures the green is far more extensive then can be seen from the first pictures.  The green is called verdigris and can be corrosive to the silver so removal becomes a priority.  There is also a haze to the watch inside cover that cab be wiped off with a finger.  This is yet more contaminates most likely from a vapor of some kind.

So the watch arrived after a few bumps but the guys over at Midwest-Money in St Louis MO are stand up guys and you can trust buying from them.  They did not monkey or fiddle with it possibly causing damage so my thanks to them for leaving it mostly as found.

When the watch arrived I immediately took to testing it.  The slip of the mains ping told me that it was broken.  No big deal as mainsprings have to be the easiest part to replace.  When I pressed the button for the repeater it was very sluggish.  The governor was not moving smoothly and it took way too long to sound off.  The tone was there though on the hammer blows telling me the gong was good.  The balance swing well and started to tick with just even the minimum power coming from the broken mainspring.  The dial was good without a single hairline.  Overall a risk but the watch had no nasty surprises. 

Next part....cleaning it up.      

A LUC - Chopard Pocket Watch from Bulgaria Part 2

Well the watch arrived this morning. It arrived and a repeater I ordered 8 days later from 3 states away still has not. But anyway...

This watch is turning into a cautionary tale to people wanting to dip their toe in the Bulgarian waters. The watch looked good by the pictures and the description had the usual bs of being serviced. As the seller put it "cleaned and oiled".

So far the only truth in his listing besides it being a LUC was that it was running and silver. Now running is a relative term. A car is running even if it only fires on 7 of 8 cylinders. In this case a jewel was replaced with a piece of brass with a hole in it. I should have paid closer attention to the pics.  

I went through the loose hole jewels i had and pulled out 4 i thought may work. So after consulting with my father in law and finding he had no hole jewels that were not in settings I had no choice but to move forward. His suggestion was to use my staking set to punch out the offending piece and set in the new jewel. I took off the bridge and found a stake and a stump and popped the stupid piece out. I tested the jewels on the pivot and one was too snug and another was just right. I put the jewel on the back of the bridge and actually it popped right in with a snap just using the flat back side of my tweezers. Put the bridge back and oiled the pivot. The watch started in 2 turns of the crown. 

Speaking of winding, it is fully wound way too soon. After taking it apart some the mainspring barrel seemed to not show any coils in the hole where you would pry the top off.  When I went to pry it there was a pop and the sound of a mainspring unwinding.  It seems that the mainspring is catching on the barrel lid.  I oiled the spring and may see if that helps. So now I may need to find a correct mainspring for it. 

The watch also has a broken case screw. It looks like it sheered off at the plate so now I have to extract it and find another screw. The knock on for the missing screw is that the movement rattles. Fear not though as some "watchmaker" fitted it with these nifty cork bumpers.

So there you go. A bad pivot, bad mainspring, and a broken case screw. I guess I should consider myself lucky to only have those issues. As to the "cleaning", that must not have included the case. The inside of the case lids were filthy like they had not been cleaned in decades. There is also a layer of junk I have had to scrape away on the rim of the case where the covers snap down. Anyway...here are more pics of my new project. If you decide to try this road of buying from Bulgaria, be prepared for botched and bodged job watchmaking having been done. Make sure you or your watchmaker can handle it or you will pay far more than the value in the end.

The quality of the watch is actually quite nice. The build is very well thought out and it is very easy to work on. I like being able to work with each wheel on its own without having to line up 3 or more pivots at a time when putting it back together. The bridges fit nice and snug but not so snug that you have issues separating them from the plate.I also noticed a serial under the dial. This serial matches the case number so at least it is more original than I thought. I think the watch was in the hands of a creative watch maker who did repairs with whatever materials he had available. The hands are not original I don't believe because the same material that was used to replace the jewel was used to modify the hole for the minute hand. The second hand also does not seem to sit low enough. But it does show again that a watchmaker did what he could to make the hand fit. The mainspring may have just been whatever he had and it may be wrong for the watch. It seems rather thick.

A LUC - Chopard Pocket Watch from Bulgaria

I have taken a risk I always advise others to avoid. I bought from a Bulgarian seller. I thought about it but not too long and I almost did not buy. I looked at their other items and almost none were franken or movements thrown in modern cases. Dials were not modified. Selling other things other than watches too and not all Coach or Gucci. 

I looked at the pictures at least 10 times and studied them. Checked his feedback. Looked at his past sold items. All look good so far. I am not saying that buying from someone in Bulgaria is a bad thing, just that so many sellers from that area are not very reputable when it comes to watch authenticity. There are fakers and franken makers everywhere, just more in some places more than others. So I took the risk and in the end I may have junk or something I will be happy with in the collection.

He kept saying IWC Cal 52 movement in the listing. The title, brand listed, and in the description he says that it is LUC but then reverts to the technical details of a IWC 52. If there was not as many pictures I would have just skipped it and went on my merry way. But I was hooked by the pics, and they are below. It Looks all correct. Case is properly marked and so is the movement. The movement is the correct design. The dial is unmarked but then if the dial had an applied name over the enamel in a paint it could have come off with cleaning.

The movement is actually a Chopard 19"' H6.4 15 jewel.  The case is a Galonne le Qualite marked German .800 silver.  It will need a clean but should look nice when done.  The movement is being listed as running and serviced.  

Final Update - Mystery Elgin 190 Type

This will be my last update on the blog about this Elgin.  Through the knowledge and experience of members of the WatchUSeek forum.  I wish to express my thanks to the members there.  Ben Hutcherson in particular has been very helpful.

In his experience he has seen and knows of watches built by employees of watch factories.  They were sold grey materials at cost and allowed to use equipment to build and finish them.  This is currently the best theory for this watch.  The only other working theory is as a prototype.

I did have the chance to strip down the watch for a basic clean and oil.  When I did I took the pictures below.  They show the high level of quality of this watch's build.  As well as that it shows that the parts have no partial or whole serial numbers stamped in them.  In a regular watch all the main plates are stamped.  

So at the moment the watch will have to be classified as an employee made grade 190.  The serial may have meaning but that meaning may be lost to time.

Mystery Elgin Update

After a gentleman on the forum (GeneJockey) he mentioned the grade 190.  This is a 23 jewel 12 size high grade Elgin hunting case movement.  I did find one instance of a 190 marked Lord Elgin with the same kind of damaskeening.  The onlt issue is that the serial number does not fall into the production range of the 190.

The watch serial would not work with any introduction of any digit within the serial on the watch.  I did further look at the watch by removing the dial.  Unlike most Elgin watches, there is no serial on the base plate.

So we still have a mystery as even though it is a grade 190 there is still the mystery of the serial number and the fact that a 23 jewel watch is marked 21.  As you can see from the picture above, there are 3 cap jewels visible.  17 jewels as a full jewel + 4 Cap Jewels + 2 Barrel Jewels = 23.  This does fall in line with the grade 190.  This appears to be a pre-production watch.  Is it possible they were testing finish styles?

I highly suggest anyone who has an interest in Elgin and vintage pocket watches in general visit Gene's blog.  You can find it here GeneJockey's Elgin Watch Blog

Part 2 - Mystery Elgin 12 Size 21 jewel Grade 236?

So the Elgin arrived in the mail at the same time as another.  I will post about that other one later as I am far more consumed by the Elgin at the moment.  So I inspected the watch and changed the crystal for one I had in my crystal set.  The watch is happily running away and after a bit I discovered something I will mention in a moment.  First there is the issue of that serial number.  I looked and for sure there was no mistake.  The serial 1620512 is what is on the watch and it is not a poor strike or any missing number.

 

The over all condition is nice.  The only thing I do not particularly like are the fine scratches of a screwdriver skating on the plate near the "Safety Barrel" words.  The movement is 21 jewels with a jeweled mainspring barrel.

The quality of the movement is excellent.  And this is where I noticed the one thing I did not expect, the mustache lever.  The watch actually has a mustache lever escapement.  This was something I usually expect to see in higher grade Swiss watches like Patek, LeCoultre, and Audemars.

This site is one of the best ones for information on movements.  The gentleman who runs it frequents the forum that I belong to. Ranfft is a great place to research.  Patek with Mustache Lever

The dial to the watch is far more silver than the auction pictures showed or the NOS ones I mentioned in the earlier post.  The dial is original to the watch and has the correct age as one would expect.

 The case is original and has a patent date of Oct 9, 17 which does fall in with this style of watch.

I still find it interesting that they made these watches to seemingly run at or better than railroad grade larger movements but did not put a second hand on it.  I will be reaching out to the forum in hopes one of the members may have an answer about the strange serial number.

The L&R Varimatic Watch Cleaner

As part of a large group of watch parts I picked up a few weeks ago I got a lathe and this awesome J&R cleaner.  I have been cleaning by hand up to now, and most likely still will to a certain extent.  That all said I am sure that cleaning via a machine like this is far less time consuming and does a far better job.

The gentleman I bought it from with the lot said he had changed the bushings and put in a new set of brushes to the motor.  It even came with an extra set of new brushes.  Apparently where he had it stored ended up having something fall on the back jar and lid cracking the edge of the Bakelite top and completely destroying the jar.  I figured I could get a new jar from eBay and I was right.  Set me back $50 though for it.

It also came with an L&R ultrasonic base.  If you have ever had to move these things you know they are like 60 pounds of machine at least.  I plugged it all in and when I started it I knew there was an issue right away.  The cycle should be that it lifts the motor with the lids, the jars move around and the motor drops back down into the jar.  Wish it had gone that way.  The machine immediately started to turn the jars which is bad as the lids have a lip and that catches the jar and jams the machine.

I was so bummed about this.  I had no idea what to expect but I already knew I as not dealing with electronics.  I looked up an instruction manual and printed it out.  Found a service manual as well on line.  I have no idea why people are paying $20 for a copy of the manual that I printed for the cost of a few sheets of paper an a little black ink.  All in cost would be less than a buck but people like to make super profit on such simple things.

I went ahead and looked at the service manual and it gives instructions if the machine goes out of sync.  It said to take the arm off and to remove the pin that holds it in place in the middle.  Ok but I could not understand why it said not to put it back,  I took the back cover off and I found out why it weighs so much.  There is a massive electric motor in it and the base frame is very thick cast metal.  I removed the arm after taking the nut off and punched out the middle pin.

The process is to manually turn that arm back and forth with the base disk on the shaft.  The idea is that it changes the timing of when the motor kicks in to spin and when the motor raises up then the jars move.  So a lot of fiddling and i got it close but at that point the other half wan none to happy with the noise and time with the machine and not her.  So I put it aside for the time.  I did get back to it after a week and a half.

I would suggest that if you plan on doing this process, keep the jars off until you have it right.  I did have the jars off but I can imagine someone forgetting and jamming it again.  I got it to the right spot and it has been working great.  Still need to spend the $100 on cleaner and rinse and put it to real work but that will be another day.  The machine itself is a nice little marvel of how things can be automated without the use of computers and electronics.

There are these screws next to each holder.  The little bar behind it has marks that help indicate the time of the cycle.  As the bottom part moves around to the next jar/stage, that screw that is through the bottom trips a lever.  The further down the screw the further down the lever and the longer the time on that timer.  When the timer is up that trips a switch to turn the motor on to move to the next cycle.  As a switch is pressed or released that causes the motor to go up then the arm causes the base to move the jars then that trips the switch for the timer and a switch it pressed to cause the motor to go back down.

The movement of the motor up and down is actually hydraulic for the lift and lowering.  There is a filler tube with a cap and breather on the side of the machine.  The heater did smell a bit when I was first turning it on and there was a bit of smoke that concerned me to start but it was all good.  I figured out how to connect the ultrasonic unit to the cleaner and it seems to work but I will have no idea yet until I try it.

      

Mystery Elgin 12 Size 21 jewel Grade 236

This watch was a complete last moment buy.  I was doing my usual eBay checking for watches.  This has now been my 2nd favorite hunting ground these days but takes far more work and time than any other.  In this case there was only 4 minutes left in the auction and I had blown most of my reserve PayPal money on 2 other watches already.

The pics looked good and the watch is running.  I had only a few minutes and did as much research in that time as I could.  Well that research turned out to be useless.  I always hit the Elgin Serial Number Database, link at the end, to see what I can find for production numbers.  I tried the number he had in the listing and it came out way wrong for what the watch is.

The serial as reported in the listing is 1620512.  This relates to a 1883 Grade 29  10 size 11 to 15 jewel hunting case watch.  The finish is nickle, size could be 10 but it could be 12, 21 jewels, and the style is way closer to a post 1900 than a 1883 movement.  I double checked the image.  Even though it is fuzzy you can still make out the number and they match.  I quickly try adding a number to the start then one to the end...still no luck.  It was a good quality looking watch and the dial had age to it but for the price I took the risk.

So in the day that has passed I have hunted the best I could and I could find no serial combination that would result in this watch.  I hit the grade list that the site has and the only corresponding 12 size 21 jewel hunting case adjusted movement I could find was the 236.  Total production was done in 1899 only and they made 2000 in all.  The watch is rather rare and in the configuration it is in, worth the risk.

These are pics from the listing, I will update with my own once it is in my hands.

The one thing that did not strike me until I had bought it was the lack of a seconds hand.  This is a hunting case movement with a dial that converts it to open face.  I did find the dial as something that can be currently bought in a 16 size that is NOS from the Elgin factory.  Dial 175 at Daves Watch Parts

The case is a 25 year gold filled case.  I don't have any pictures of the inside of the case back so I have no idea who the maker was.  No brassing at least.

And here is what all the drama is about.  There are a few things about this movement that I still have yet to solve.  You can see the serial number and it is 1620512.  Another is that the other 21 jewel 236 I found on a page does not have the jewel in the barrel but rather a bushing.  That watch is here IHC 185

When you look at the pictures of the movement I did notice the one plate screw missing.  This is replaceable easily as most of the 12 size movements used the same screws and plate configuration.  I intend to strip the watch down and check the numbers stamped on the base plate as well as the other parts.  This will tell me if it was pieced together or is all correctly stamped as one watch.  

I also noticed that the case has no screw marks on the rim.  This is usually a good indication that the case was from a different watch.  being that the dial is one you can find as factory NOS indicates that it could have been installed at factory.  The kicker will be if the case is a Elgin marked case.  That would indicate that the watch was not a jobber but actually sent out like this.  Makes you wonder if all of the 236 were like this.

This is the link to the Elgin site I use.....it is Awesome!  Elgin Database